Thoughts on Phenolic Spacers?

hesitantOBS

New member
http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66073

In response to the demand to extend our Phenolic Spacer lineup to include some of the older subaru models, we now have created intake manifold thermal spacers for 93-01 1.8L/2.2L and 99+ 2.5 N/A 'Phase 2' engines.

Thermal spacers lift the intake manifold off the super heated engine to lessen the transfer of heat. Both the intake manifold and engine block are aluminum so the high heat transfers very quickly....well these spacers stop that. The cooler the intake charge the more HP and TQ your engine will make.

In addition to cooling your intake charge, these will also give you a larger intake plenum similar to that of a throttle body spacer.

These all come in our Triple Thick 8mm thickness for maximum heat protection.

Why not go that extra step to get yourself past the competition?

Applications:

All 93-99 1.8L/2.2L Subaru engines

All 99+ 2.5 N/A 'Phase 2' Subaru engines

Price: 79.99

Link to website:

http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/i...jjoeqkkg4g ll0

Like our other thermal spacers we suggest putting oem subaru gaskets on top and bottom of each spacer to allow proper sealing. You can buy these on our online store as well for much cheaper than the dealership.
1.) Do they actually increase TQ and HP? If so, roughly how much? 1-2?

2.) Are there any side effects that should be thought about?

3.) Are they effective $/hp?

4.) Why are these _just_ becoming available for the scoobs?

 
I do know that most race cars (Chebby, F.O.R.D, etc) use carb spacers. They "say" it helps, but I've never seen data. One place to look is: uniquemotorsports.com IIRC, he did some temp measuring with and without the spacers...

If only there was a machinist locally who could make those for a good deal....

 
But they'd have to be made out of a material that dissipates heat. Oh, and beat the $77 + S&H price that GrimmMotorSports offers.
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1.) Do they actually increase TQ and HP? If so, roughly how much? 1-2?

2.) Are there any side effects that should be thought about?

3.) Are they effective $/hp?

4.) Why are these _just_ becoming available for the scoobs?
My thoughts are,

You don't actually gain from them, you may get less loss in a hot engine situation. Also, heat is the enemy and hotter air is less power and more likely to get detination. This is going to be a bigger deal in a turbo car anyways.

I don't really know that there would be any side effects.

Probably not for all the other things out there that you can see actual numbers.

They seem like they are 'just' becoming available for a lot of applications. Maybe there wasnt a demand, or the technology was too expensive, who knows, but it seems to be a new trend.

THis is of course all IMHO and I could be way off the mark.

 
carb spacers are difrent. it's more abou air flow and turbliance,

the TB spacers kinda sorta work.... but it's not like your going to gail 5 hp, you just might not lose 3hp when it gets REALLY hot. for 77 bucks. get an K&N filter, that WILL make HP.

 
those spacers are for race applications, where every effort is made to extract every available bit of hp. for street use, that sort of gain is lost in rounding error.

you'd be better served to focus on the basics--suspension, brakes, intake, exhaust.

there IS no such thing as a free lunch.

 
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Wasn't going to buy it, either way. I don't really feel like taking my intake apart...

I was just curious when I saw it on rs25.

Thanks guys.

 
Phenolic spacers are a good idea for high temp applications. They act to de-couple metallic surfaces so that there is less heat transfer across from the block to the intake manifold. Keeps the intake manifold from getting as hot(supposedly). This ties in with the thread about the coolant lines and the TB.

Regards, John

 
They say in the description that the 8mm. are for folks with FMIC. They note that there might be clearance issues with the stock IC. I'd go with the 8mm and make them fit though! :-)

Cheers! John

 
they maybe a better option on an na car then a fi car. I think for an fi car its better to do water injection too cool intake charges. Iam new to the whole spacer idea but i see people with g35s doing it and getting 5-10whp with a few other mods. give it a try.

 
1.) Do they actually increase TQ and HP? If so, roughly how much? 1-2?

as ralli said, they do, but only because they minimize the loss from heat soak. its the same idea as a FMIC. a front mount doesn't increase power, but it does allow you to make more power because of the cooler air it allows. after several dyno runs you WILL see power drop off as the motor heats up and so does everything around it. with a spacer this will take longer to happen and by staying even you essentially 'gain' the power you would have lost. hotter intake charges mean retarded timing. retarded timing is lost power.

2.) Are there any side effects that should be thought about?

too thick of a spacer requires longer intake mani bolts. TMIC people will start to push the top mount into the hoodscoop gasket.

3.) Are they effective $/hp?

no. but at some point theres nothing left to mod.

4.) Why are these _just_ becoming available for the scoobs?

because people have only paid attention to subarus since 2002, and until now theres been more important issues to worry about when trying to extract power from the ej series motor. they've used them in circle track and other racing series for years. and yes, carb spacers are different.

notice how we're just seeing water/meth injection for subarus and other sport compacts now too? well the military used it in supercharged high altitude planes in WWII. so yeah, we're behind. there was nothing stopping it other than demand for a product and the transfer of knowledge between fields of tuning.

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there are different levels of phenolic, make sure when shopping you're getting a good thickness (thicker the better) and the grade is good.

grade XX phenolic is paper layered and is raisin, really

grade CE is better, usually canvas layered and is kind of a middle ground for price

grade LE is like CE, but cloth instead of canvas

grade G7 is the best. its an awesome heat blocker and is what the pros use. now if it were $150 per square foot we could use it.

the grimmspeed spacers are grade CE.

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seth, although they would be easy to make, i dont think a mill would be the way to do it. laser cut is the way. you'd have some crazy chatter to deal with trying to mill something that thin all the way through while still holding it from the edge.

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as for N/A vs. FI uses, both would benefit, but i still think FI would benefit more since turbo motors heat the intake though heat transfer as well as pressurized air being hotter (ideal gas law). yes water injection would help a lot more than a spacer, but water injection would also help an N/A car a lot more than the spacer as well. plus phenolic spacers never need to be refilled!

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i can say that i'll let turbo motor cool to the point where the radiator, overflow tank and even turbo are room temp, the intake mani it still hot as hell.

if i could get the intake mani to cool as quick as the radiator i'd be happy.

mine should be done next week.

3/8ths of an inch CE, or about 10mm.

i'll probably be using it for a throttle body adapter as well, but in the 1/2" to 3/4" variety.

DSC_0467.jpg


 
1.) Do they actually increase TQ and HP? If so, roughly how much? 1-2?

as ralli said, they do, but only because they minimize the loss from heat soak. its the same idea as a FMIC. a front mount doesn't increase power, but it does allow you to make more power because of the cooler air it allows. after several dyno runs you WILL see power drop off as the motor heats up and so does everything around it. with a spacer this will take longer to happen and by staying even you essentially 'gain' the power you would have lost. hotter intake charges mean retarded timing. retarded timing is lost power.

2.) Are there any side effects that should be thought about?

too thick of a spacer requires longer intake mani bolts. TMIC people will start to push the top mount into the hoodscoop gasket.

3.) Are they effective $/hp?

no. but at some point theres nothing left to mod.

4.) Why are these _just_ becoming available for the scoobs?

because people have only paid attention to subarus since 2002, and until now theres been more important issues to worry about when trying to extract power from the ej series motor. they've used them in circle track and other racing series for years. and yes, carb spacers are different.

notice how we're just seeing water/meth injection for subarus and other sport compacts now too? well the military used it in supercharged high altitude planes in WWII. so yeah, we're behind. there was nothing stopping it other than demand for a product and the transfer of knowledge between fields of tuning.

____________________________________________________________

there are different levels of phenolic, make sure when shopping you're getting a good thickness (thicker the better) and the grade is good.

grade XX phenolic is paper layered and is raisin, really

grade CE is better, usually canvas layered and is kind of a middle ground for price

grade LE is like CE, but cloth instead of canvas

grade G7 is the best. its an awesome heat blocker and is what the pros use. now if it were $150 per square foot we could use it.

the grimmspeed spacers are grade CE.

____________________________________________________________

seth, although they would be easy to make, i dont think a mill would be the way to do it. laser cut is the way. you'd have some crazy chatter to deal with trying to mill something that thin all the way through while still holding it from the edge.

____________________________________________________________

as for N/A vs. FI uses, both would benefit, but i still think FI would benefit more since turbo motors heat the intake though heat transfer as well as pressurized air being hotter (ideal gas law). yes water injection would help a lot more than a spacer, but water injection would also help an N/A car a lot more than the spacer as well. plus phenolic spacers never need to be refilled!

____________________________________________________________

i can say that i'll let turbo motor cool to the point where the radiator, overflow tank and even turbo are room temp, the intake mani it still hot as hell.

if i could get the intake mani to cool as quick as the radiator i'd be happy.

mine should be done next week.

3/8ths of an inch CE, or about 10mm.

i'll probably be using it for a throttle body adapter as well, but in the 1/2" to 3/4" variety.

DSC_0467.jpg
Very awesome...

Are you going to do a TVG delete while you are in there????? (yes I know, off topic)

I was thinking for autocross this might help some because especially the hot days we've had, I'm heatsoaking very horribly. I'd like to do something. Oh course, I dont even know if its legal of the class (i'm pretty sure its not on second though).

 
Evan,

Nice write up!

There are more was to make something like that than you know.....
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bandsaw? ;D

Very awesome...

Are you going to do a TVG delete while you are in there????? (yes I know, off topic)

I was thinking for autocross this might help some because especially the hot days we've had, I'm heatsoaking very horribly. I'd like to do something. Oh course, I dont even know if its legal of the class (i'm pretty sure its not on second though).
i'm doing the deletes in a roundabout kind of way
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you should check the rule. if it says no power adding products, this could still be legal, because all it does is allow you to keep the power you already have for longer.

a cold motor with the spacer and a cold motor without it will make the same power, hence its not a power adder. that's how the son of a lawyer would see it anyway
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