Butler & Mac Master. Car down, again ...

Matt00RS25 said:
ehh, building high performance motors isn't for the novice mechanic....takes a lot of work to make sure things are right, I would personally leave it to a professional considering I think you're block alone was like 3 grand right.
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Yes but how can you trust someone who builds small block chevys (for example)all the time to understand specific demands in a performance subaru motor that let's say, the owner has read up on and likely has hundreds of opinions ands and help with some clicks on a keyboard. Its not magic to put any motor together. Read and follow procedures and specifications, and advise from people who have don't it. Some special tools required and other than any boring or machine work many people capable of tightening to torque and measuring clearances. Like I said IMO if your gonna run something that's "built" who better to build it then the person who's gonna use it every day and probably break it at some point. Plus can do it at your own pace and not rush to get it done before lunchtime or 5:00.

 
jaKe said:
Yes but how can you trust someone who builds small block chevys (for example)all the time to understand specific demands in a performance subaru motor that let's say, the owner has read up on and likely has hundreds of opinions ands and help with some clicks on a keyboard. Its not magic to put any motor together. Read and follow procedures and specifications, and advise from people who have don't it. Some special tools required and other than any boring or machine work many people capable of tightening to torque and measuring clearances. Like I said IMO if your gonna run something that's "built" who better to build it then the person who's gonna use it every day and probably break it at some point. Plus can do it at your own pace and not rush to get it done before lunchtime or 5:00.
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They do subaru motors all the time. So it's not like they don't know what they're doing.

Bolded text: There's no rushing going at at Butler & Mac Master.... I have dealt with them too, and I can assure you of that.

 
jaKe said:
Yes but how can you trust someone who builds small block chevys (for example)all the time to understand specific demands in a performance subaru motor that let's say, the owner has read up on and likely has hundreds of opinions ands and help with some clicks on a keyboard. Its not magic to put any motor together. Read and follow procedures and specifications, and advise from people who have don't it. Some special tools required and other than any boring or machine work many people capable of tightening to torque and measuring clearances. Like I said IMO if your gonna run something that's "built" who better to build it then the person who's gonna use it every day and probably break it at some point. Plus can do it at your own pace and not rush to get it done before lunchtime or 5:00.
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This whole post is a contradiction. You say that anyone can build a performance motor by following direction, yet you don't trust a company that builds high performance motors with an in house machine shop?

They flubbed the build, and unfortunately are grasping at straws so that they don't have to cover the rebuild. I have seen many more shadetree builds go fantastically wrong on much more simple oversights.

 
I've shadetreed my share of engines, and they're still running... I rebuilt a v6 outboard (they have three separate crank cases) in a boat. And the damn thing still runs... It can be done. Just follow the directions...

 
Chris said:
I've shadetreed my share of engines, and they're still running... I rebuilt a v6 outboard (they have three separate crank cases) in a boat. And the damn thing still runs... It can be done. Just follow the directions...
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If you are responding to me, you missed my point.

 
I see how my post may seem contradicting. I'm trying to say IMO that if you want to go fast you should do some of those things yourself. Learn as you go and take pride in knowing done it yourself. Plus for the learning and some tools needed can do it better again or for another car rather than go blow $ each time want an engine re done or modified. Everyone makes mistakes and yes you can take it back and have them re do it. I get that. But to me figuring out what went wrong and learning from that is for more valuable. I'm not trying to say that B n M doesn't know specifically, more of in general. This would be a great bar-room discussion
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There are plenty of good mechanics and machinists around here. I see your point if you're just talking general, but I can assure you that saying machinists rush jobs to catch lunch is not true. My father has owned his own machine shop in Saco for over 30 years. And hes been late for plenty of family dinners due to long hours at the shop. Plus ryan did a lot of the work himself, and with gabes help. installing the heads dropping the motor into the car

 
Just so everyone's clear -- finding no differences in measurements with the stock pistons and the Mahle's that were in there is a benefit for me, not them. They wanted to measure these in the hopes of finding the Mahle's to be off in measurements, resulting in the mysterious intake valve contact they are claiming. Like Pedro said, they are reaching for straws at this point, but I think I'm making progress, finally.

 
Although I have never dealt with a built motor I will say that something that needs to be as exact as a high powered turbocharged engine having a shop do it is best. Who better to eat the $5000 bill for messing up other then a shop. If it fails and is due to their mistake they will end up paying for it. If you do it yourself and it fails your SOL. Butler and Mac Master is really looking for a way to not have to pay for it. Pistons out of tolerance would fall on the piston manufacturer, valve failure would fall on the valve manufacturer. And so on. As far as being a small block chevy shop, like others have said, they do more then that. My high school used them for a few of the automotive projects that went on.

 
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CoupedUpSubie said:
Although I have never dealt with a built motor I will say that something that needs to be as exact as a high powered turbocharged engine having a shop do it is best. Who better to eat the $5000 bill for messing up other then a shop. If it fails and is due to their mistake they will end up paying for it. If you do it yourself and it fails your SOL. Butler and Mac Master is really looking for a way to not have to pay for it. Pistons out of tolerance would fall on the piston manufacturer, valve failure would fall on the valve manufacturer. And so on. As far as being a small block chevy shop, like others have said, they do more then that. My high school used them for a few of the automotive projects that went on.
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I am speaking in generalities. I am not saying they are not capable.
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but I beleive there is satisfaction of learning and doing a job yourself. As for asking for the old pistons back now, isn't that strange? referrring also to Ryan's latest post, I would have inspected the Mahle pistons in the bores and measured and compared them to stock specs (if stock bore) the first time, having them request the old ones now to measure seems like a detail overlooked. What other details were overlooked first time? BTW when inspecting for light valve contact I look for evidence of carbon being broken away from piston top, in the pictures on this thread I see maybe a chance of one valve relief looking extra clean but this could be due to injector spray fuel at it too. I can clearly see real evidence of contact in those photos.

 
if you read back in this thread you will find that they are claiming that the valve relief that is forged/cast/machined (I don't know the construction of the pistons) into the face of the piston is the "contact" between valve and piston. That is untrue. So now they are trying to find a way out of rebuilding this engine for free.

 
Pedro said:
if you read back in this thread you will find that they are claiming that the valve relief that is forged/cast/machined (I don't know the construction of the pistons) into the face of the piston is the "contact" between valve and piston. That is untrue. So now they are trying to find a way out of rebuilding this engine for free.
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I agree. I see no evdence valve hit the relief. did any of the valve seats loosen up in the heads? I have seen those come loose ( usually hardened steel alloy seats pressed into aluminum heads)? The seat could be loose rattle/banging around but if that valve is closed pulls seat back into head appearing ok. More evident when cam pushing valve open. I wonder cause there must be a source of the noise which caused engine removal. And its not evident by that valve in picture. Plus 16 valve engine usually two valves make contact at a time not one unless that valve stuck/broke/whatever.

 
There was lots of ticking coming from the engine and eventually a valve broke and fell into the #2 cylinder. Most people think the noise is due to the valve lash being 5 thousandths over. This is not good for the valves.My theory is that the lash being as far off as it was put stresses on the valves. This affected what happened to be the weakest valve in the group. Also over gapping will prevent the valve from opening completely as it only expands so much and the camshaft has a set amount it can move the valve. If the gap is 5 thousandths over at temperature then the valve will be 5 thousands from being fully open.

 
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^That's pretty much been my argument from day 1. Driver's side head was making more noise than usual, which was due to that exhaust valve making excessive contact, which eventually weakened it at the neck, and obviously eventually snapped (a clean snap at that as you can see on the pictures -- certainly not a timing issue). That valve took a good 6-7k miles worth of it before it gave.

 
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Oh I see where you are talking about at the keeper end of the valve. Pics are tiny on my blackberry. I failed to see that and put it together with valve snap ( I need sleep too, new baby) I could see how them being too loose can cause that, how about the valve seat, lap them in? Wouldn't there be a re check period if the valves were new and or seats machined? So are they replacing anything other than the valve this time around? I would hope they would re check that valve seat to make sure its right and adjust all valves again. Hopefully they will make it right for ya ryan.

Edited cause I'm dumb.

 
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Update: Engine is being replaced!
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New engine is currently being put together and in the works. Looks like they after all are gonna take care of me. Should have a new engine for Mikey to put back in by the end of the month!

 
Probably after they realized they had no more excuses lol. After measuring the pistons and such, I think they knew that had to give me something.

 
Awesome. Very happy for you, now hopefully this one lasts!!!! And it should if it's built right

 
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